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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizz Fastfists View Post
    I don't see how this trade makes either team better. It doesn't give OKC extra cap flexibility. It doesn't give Washington cap flexibility. Singler and Oubre have both been bad the last two years, although Oubre has a chance to develop. Roberson and Porter are similar and both are RFAs that will get paid this off-season. I like Gortat better than Kanter, but I'm not sure he's a better fit for OKC. They would still be needing that other big time scorer that they need now. They need another big time offensive player not more defense. Washington just gave Mahinmi a big contract this off-season so you wouldn't think they'd be looking to add another big contract center to tie up $35M/yr in one position.
    PAID? I guess it's possible if Andre improves his offensive game between now and off season but we couldn't sign him. I guess we will see how that works out..

    I think defense is important and there are match ups and situations i really like having Andre on the court.. but there are also quite a lot of situations i have no earthly idea why they guy is seeing minutes as well. If i had to choose from a defensive specialist like Andre and a guy that is decent defense and decent offense then i go with the 2 way player every time. I think Andre is a fantastic defensive specialist to bring out against your Harden's and Kawhi's and your Klay Thompson type players but unless you are facing one of those huge impact all stars then i just don't think he has any business starting in the NBA.. i'm sure others see it differently but to me I'd give him Kyle's contract at best and be happy with him as a specialist. If you think he's going to get paid and be a starter on another team i guess we will see right now i just don't see it.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by gthunder View Post
    PAID? I guess it's possible if Andre improves his offensive game between now and off season but we couldn't sign him. I guess we will see how that works out..
    Paid is relative, but given that Tony Allen got $5M/yr under the old cap Roberson getting $10M/yr is around his salary floor and $12-16M is probably what he ends up with. Porter probably gets something similar to Crabbe, $18-19M/yr, although he could get a max like Harrison Barnes did based on potential. Tony Allen is a very good comparable for Roberson. A top wing defender who never had an offensive game, 28% career 3pt shooter, but still got a solid salary due to his value from defense.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by BabyJordanSingler View Post
    Roberson shot 60% from 2 ball land last season and he is at a respectable 56% so far early in the season. He continues to be misused by trying to turn him into some kind of 3 pt threat that he clearly never will be.

    By the way, he only shot well in game 6 against the Spurs. He did excellent against the Warriors and it was a factor in us going up 3-1.
    His twos are all dunks or layups.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizz Fastfists View Post
    Paid is relative, but given that Tony Allen got $5M/yr under the old cap Roberson getting $10M/yr is around his salary floor and $12-16M is probably what he ends up with. Porter probably gets something similar to Crabbe, $18-19M/yr, although he could get a max like Harrison Barnes did based on potential. Tony Allen is a very good comparable for Roberson. A top wing defender who never had an offensive game, 28% career 3pt shooter, but still got a solid salary due to his value from defense.
    He is a good player to compare to and Tony only got 5mil this year.. he was just over 3 mil in 2010 to 2013 season in his prime with the grizzlies. I have no idea how that is going to translate into today's bigger numbers but 12-16 mil seems WAY overboard for a guy like Andre.. If we pay him that we are stupid. I would say 10 mil would be his ceiling not his floor. I know Tony was a good defensive guy when he was facing an all star player it's nice to have him.. but for all the other times it's a waste and liability. 2 way players in the NBA give you more value for your money IMO..

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by BabyJordanSingler View Post
    Roberson shot 60% from 2 ball land last season and he is at a respectable 56% so far early in the season. He continues to be misused by trying to turn him into some kind of 3 pt threat that he clearly never will be.

    By the way, he only shot well in game 6 against the Spurs. He did excellent against the Warriors and it was a factor in us going up 3-1.
    Roberson is shooting 45% this year from the field. He actually has a slightly worse FG% then Oladipo, Grant and Morrow and he isn't even close when it comes to 3's. IMO he isn't any better then Grant on defense either.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljeatin26 View Post
    IMO he isn't any better then Grant on defense either.
    Then you're not paying attention. So much of what Andre does flies under the radar because it's in what the other team DOESN'T do. You don't really notice anything until you start realizing that the other team's star really hasn't done much during the game. That's usually because of Andre. I really like Grant and think he has the potential to be as good of a defender as Roberson, but he's not there yet. Have the rest of you noticed that Andre isn't hesitating as much these days? He's still passing up shots, but you don't see that moment of hesitation that he was doing earlier in the season. Now he's either shooting or passing with no hesitation. I like it.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizz Fastfists View Post
    I don't see how this trade makes either team better. It doesn't give OKC extra cap flexibility. It doesn't give Washington cap flexibility. Singler and Oubre have both been bad the last two years, although Oubre has a chance to develop. Roberson and Porter are similar and both are RFAs that will get paid this off-season. I like Gortat better than Kanter, but I'm not sure he's a better fit for OKC. They would still be needing that other big time scorer that they need now. They need another big time offensive player not more defense. Washington just gave Mahinmi a big contract this off-season so you wouldn't think they'd be looking to add another big contract center to tie up $35M/yr in one position.
    Amazing how you can just slip this overt disrespect for Kanter in so cavalierly.

    Kanter >>>> Gortat.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Early View Post
    Amazing how you can just slip this overt disrespect for Kanter in so cavalierly.

    Kanter >>>> Gortat.
    If we ignore every stat that judges a player based on playing the game of basketball then Kanter is better. However, if we look at the game of basketball and the statistics they produce then Gortat is better. We can ignore RPM, BPM, FG%, eFG%, VORP, OWS, DWS, WS and I'm sure eventually you can find something that says Kanter is the better player.

    If we only look at FGA and 3PA as the measuring stick we can agree that Kanter is better. Does that work for you? We can't include percentages, because that wouldn't be good for Kanter, but only judging off volume of shots taken does give him an edge over Gortat.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizz Fastfists View Post
    If we ignore every stat that judges a player based on playing the game of basketball then Kanter is better. However, if we look at the game of basketball and the statistics they produce then Gortat is better. We can ignore RPM, BPM, FG%, eFG%, VORP, OWS, DWS, WS and I'm sure eventually you can find something that says Kanter is the better player.

    If we only look at FGA and 3PA as the measuring stick we can agree that Kanter is better. Does that work for you? We can't include percentages, because that wouldn't be good for Kanter, but only judging off volume of shots taken does give him an edge over Gortat.
    On defense he is better.. on Offense Kanter blows him away.. Your FG% fails to mention it's like 1% difference but yet Kanter earns more PPG in nearly half the minutes. Notice you dn't have FT% on there either because Gortat pretty sucky on the line. Is that not a stat to look at? You can cherry pick numbers you like all the time and I will cede Gortat is a better defensive player than Kanter.. but hey.. since we are comparing how does he look compared to Adams?? Just curious since we are saying Kanter is no good because Gortat is better.

  10. #25
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    I never said Kanter was no good. I said "I like Gortat better than Kanter, but I'm not sure he's a better fit for OKC". I then talked about having to replace Kanter's scoring somewhere else because Gortat isn't a prolific scorer and Porter, whom I also like better than Kanter in a vacuum, wouldn't replace Kanter's offense. Read the post that Jimmy quoted and tell me where I said that Kanter sucked. The issue is that Kanter's value is completely on the offensive end so any center that can play decent on both ends will always produce better numbers and have a better on the court impact. Kanter is great at coming in for short stretches and putting up points. He is the center version of Morrow, Mike Miller, Jamal Crawford, etc. Those guys score in bunches off the bench more by hitting 3s while Kanter does it in the P&R, but they serve the same purpose. None of them are good on defense.

    Does lumping Kanter in with that group mean he sucks? If so then he sucks. To me it means he is a role player and he plays his role well. Let's just stop trying to pretend he is something that he is not. He's not ever going to be a good defensive center. He's not ever going to be a rim protector. He's not ever going to be a guy that you want to build a team around. Kanter, ideally, is your 4th best offensive player so you can exploit the good match ups you have and limit the bad ones. That is how the team was set up on draft night by Presti. Then things got messed up in FA, which is the only reason there is talk about trading for a wing with deals that include Kanter. If kd resigns then there is nothing to fix.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizz Fastfists View Post
    I never said Kanter was no good. I said "I like Gortat better than Kanter, but I'm not sure he's a better fit for OKC". I then talked about having to replace Kanter's scoring somewhere else because Gortat isn't a prolific scorer and Porter, whom I also like better than Kanter in a vacuum, wouldn't replace Kanter's offense. Read the post that Jimmy quoted and tell me where I said that Kanter sucked. The issue is that Kanter's value is completely on the offensive end so any center that can play decent on both ends will always produce better numbers and have a better on the court impact. Kanter is great at coming in for short stretches and putting up points. He is the center version of Morrow, Mike Miller, Jamal Crawford, etc. Those guys score in bunches off the bench more by hitting 3s while Kanter does it in the P&R, but they serve the same purpose. None of them are good on defense.

    Does lumping Kanter in with that group mean he sucks? If so then he sucks. To me it means he is a role player and he plays his role well. Let's just stop trying to pretend he is something that he is not. He's not ever going to be a good defensive center. He's not ever going to be a rim protector. He's not ever going to be a guy that you want to build a team around. Kanter, ideally, is your 4th best offensive player so you can exploit the good match ups you have and limit the bad ones. That is how the team was set up on draft night by Presti. Then things got messed up in FA, which is the only reason there is talk about trading for a wing with deals that include Kanter. If kd resigns then there is nothing to fix.
    I agree Kanter is not ever going to be a fantastic defensive center or rim protector.. I wouldn't say he is terrible at it but he's not an elite defensive center no question about that. I also agree if we'd have retained KD Kanter would have been # 4 offensive option but as it is he is our 3rd best offensive option right now and that jump from 4 to 3 is huge and he is a LOT more than just a role player he is a huge impact to the success of this team.. Without him we would not have as good a record as we have right now.

    I think it's pretty safe to assume you value defense a lot more than offense because of the points you make about Kanter and the points you make about Andre.. but you say a player decent on both ends will always produce better numbers is that only for the center position? Just curious about your thinking if defense better than offense? Or should they be looked at evenly as far as numbers go?

    Still curious to see what Gortat's numbers are against Adams too.. I'm not great with the numbers or anything but would like to know exactly where Adams is stacking up against other centers in the league. Is there anything that stands out with our centers vs others that we should like or dislike?

    I do like to see the numbers as well i think it's a very valuable tool to use... No way do i think it should be the ONLY tool to use but i do like to see the numbers.

  12. #27
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    The more I watch porter, the more I want him on our team. He scores efficiently and rebounds. He always has one of the better +\- on the team.

  13. #28
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    Kizz you are very knowledgeable about stats, but your Kanter hate is weird. He's clearly a very good player. Sure he has weaknesses but he plays great. Watch the games and he is a positive impact. Above stats he's a threat that defences need to honour him and opens things up. I just dont understand your disdain for him.

    Its weird. Same with Singler. You love him over Morrow if I remember, but Singler was CLEARLY useless when you watch the games.
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterJohnsonOK View Post
    I was injured several times in my late teens from trying to re-inact ****os

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clangus View Post
    Kizz you are very knowledgeable about stats, but your Kanter hate is weird. He's clearly a very good player. Sure he has weaknesses but he plays great. Watch the games and he is a positive impact. Above stats he's a threat that defences need to honour him and opens things up. I just dont understand your disdain for him.

    Its weird. Same with Singler. You love him over Morrow if I remember, but Singler was CLEARLY useless when you watch the games.
    There are some things players do that are not "measured" by a stat. If it cannot be measured then it doesn't count to stat guys.. They live and die by stats.. Although i'm curious to Kizz statement earlier that 2 way centers are always better than 1 way centers because I know one of his favorites is Andre and he is the very definition of a 1 way player just not a center.. I cannot imagine another SG in the league that is so 1 sided than Andre who is great on defense but absolutely horrible on offense.. So i assume he values defense more than offense and that's why there's such a negative view on Kanter. But when i look at numbers i really don't see much difference on the "defensive" side from Adams and Kanter but i'm honestly not sure about all the stat's i'm looking at on the defensive side when it comes to win shares etc... Can't seem to get a clear answer from the "numbers" guys on just why Kanter is so much more negative on the floor vs Adams all i ever hear is "Kanter sucks on defense"... well ok where is he sucking because I"m not seeing it any more so than when Adams is on the floor. I personally like them BOTH on the floor especially in crunch time..

    I will say this that Kanter is HUGE to this team right now and he takes an enormous amount of pressure off Russ in the scoring department and Russ trusts him to deliver when he gives him a good pass.. There is no negative to having him on the team or on the floor and he needs more minutes than he's been getting there's no question in my mind. If someone can tell me why and give me proof then i'm listening but i have watched every single game so far this year and as far as what i am seeing.. Kanter needs to be on that floor in crunch time..

  15. #30
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    Gortat and Adams depends on the exact stat, but things like BPM, RPM, VORP, etc they are both ahead of Kanter.

    As for value all I can tell you is that OKC is -4.5 points every 100 possessions that Kanter is on the court. That is with Kanter playing half his minutes with Westbrook who is +17.2 per 100 possessions! Your lying eyes are just as bad as mine. That is why stats exist. They correct our observational bias. The Thunder are +9.7 points for every 100 possessions that Roberson is on the court. The reason for that is actual very simple. Roberson drives both offensive and defensive possessions by creating breaks with his defense either off a miss or turnover.

    As for Singler I never liked him over Morrow. I liked him as a backup SF for kd for 10-15 minutes a night based on his career as a shooter, similar to Morrow. Morrow just isn't big enough to play SF. I was saying Morrow should have been playing over Waiters, but not Singler, due to position.

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