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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizz Fastfists View Post
    Gortat and Adams depends on the exact stat, but things like BPM, RPM, VORP, etc they are both ahead of Kanter.

    As for value all I can tell you is that OKC is -4.5 points every 100 possessions that Kanter is on the court. That is with Kanter playing half his minutes with Westbrook who is +17.2 per 100 possessions! Your lying eyes are just as bad as mine. That is why stats exist. They correct our observational bias. The Thunder are +9.7 points for every 100 possessions that Roberson is on the court. The reason for that is actual very simple. Roberson drives both offensive and defensive possessions by creating breaks with his defense either off a miss or turnover.

    As for Singler I never liked him over Morrow. I liked him as a backup SF for kd for 10-15 minutes a night based on his career as a shooter, similar to Morrow. Morrow just isn't big enough to play SF. I was saying Morrow should have been playing over Waiters, but not Singler, due to position.
    So is there a stat to measure what you claim there?? If there is not then you cannot say that Andre is the reason they are 9.7 points better per 100 possessions.. Andre plays nearly all his minutes with Russ on the court and Russ makes everyone else better and their numbers are going to reflect that... Kanter being -4.5 per 100 is because he plays a lot of minutes with the bench and anything goes there.. Put Russ+Kanter with RUss+Adams per 100 and see what those numbers come out to.

    See even in the numbers world you can find numbers to justify your way of thinking. Find out how many minutes Andre plays without Russ on the floor and then see what those points per possessions comes out to. I'm trying to think i really don't know if he even plays at all without Russ on the floor.. So take Russ's number WITH Andre on the floor.. and then compare to Russ numbers WITHOUT Andre on the floor.. Curious to see what that is.. I bet there's all sorts of combo's you can come up with to justify a belief..

    Sometimes it's better to just watch the game and see how they play and just go off of what your eyes are telling you..

  2. #32
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    Realistically, what is Kanter's trade value? There is no denying he's an elite offensive big man. However there seem to be an anbundance of good foreign big men in the NBA right now.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knrstz View Post
    Realistically, what is Kanter's trade value? There is no denying he's an elite offensive big man. However there seem to be an anbundance of good foreign big men in the NBA right now.
    He's got a LOT of trade value IMO and i'm pretty sure other teams believe that as well.. I know we don't trade him unless we get something huge in return because he is huge to the team right now.

  4. #34
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    What teams might want him?

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knrstz View Post
    What teams might want him?
    lots of teams would want him but probably don't have anything we want or need. The only thing I see us even remotely considering a trade with him is for a legitimate SF to take KD's spot... That's the only area we are weak in. As the season progresses it appears to me a better idea to keep Kanter right now.. Contracts considered Kanter is going to end up being a bargain by season's end IMO.

    In short I just don't see us trading him without an all star or near all star level SF being part of the trade.. If we do anything less than that we will be making another JH type mistake IMO. He's just too good and too much of an impact to say trade him without an immediate improvement on the team from the trade.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knrstz View Post
    Realistically, what is Kanter's trade value? There is no denying he's an elite offensive big man. However there seem to be an anbundance of good foreign big men in the NBA right now.
    He has none. That is the problem. If he had trade value OKC would be a better team right now. No team wants him. He isn't a piece to build around and no team will trade for a complementary piece that has his contract and his limited contribution. You might be able to unload him for a more useful, to OKC, bad contract, although I can't think of any off-hand with the possible exception of 'Melo. The best you can realistically hope for is trading Kanter for a max contract wing that is overpaid, like Crabbe.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizz Fastfists View Post
    He has none. That is the problem. If he had trade value OKC would be a better team right now. No team wants him. He isn't a piece to build around and no team will trade for a complementary piece that has his contract and his limited contribution. You might be able to unload him for a more useful, to OKC, bad contract, although I can't think of any off-hand with the possible exception of 'Melo. The best you can realistically hope for is trading Kanter for a max contract wing that is overpaid, like Crabbe.
    That is so ridiculous that he has no trade value and so ridiculous that we would be a better team if he had trade value.. This is why the Kanter hate blurs your mind.. You cannot be taken seriously when you say things like that and that is why people call you out on the Kanter hate when you make statements like that.. There is absolutely NO basis for fact in that assessment.. That is totally your opinion and belief that Kanter sucks and is a burden to the team.

    Kanter is not a max contract right now and his contract is only going to look cheaper next year. If 17mil year should ONLY be paid to a centerpiece player to build your team around then there are a lot of other teams that are a lot worse off than we are. And i didn't realize that Adams and Dipo are both guys that are centerpiece players to an organization either.. Apparently we are going to have 3 next year before we even get to Kanter's contract.. You realize they are going to be making like 6 mil and nearly 3 mil more than Kanter next year.. Are you telling me they centerpiece players? smh

  8. #38
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    Let me chip in with an argument in favor of Kanter that is not stats based.
    How many of you agree with me that team-chemistry is very important for a team's success. Im not just talking about that players get along with each other well as personalities, but also basketball wise, that they know each other well, can play together well therefore.
    Kanter is a perfect fit in that regard. He loves OKC and the team, he loves Adams, he loves Russ and the team also likes him. He is a hard-worker, very enthusiastic and especially him and Westbrook feel each other on the court pretty well I would say.

    Take that into consideration when you wanna make a trade with him. His value to the Thunder team is bigger than any stats would show you.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by gthunder View Post
    That is so ridiculous that he has no trade value and so ridiculous that we would be a better team if he had trade value.. This is why the Kanter hate blurs your mind.. You cannot be taken seriously when you say things like that and that is why people call you out on the Kanter hate when you make statements like that.. There is absolutely NO basis for fact in that assessment.. That is totally your opinion and belief that Kanter sucks and is a burden to the team.
    I've been over this repeatedly, but I'll try it one more time. There are multiple versions of Enes Kanter on the trading block right now. The other versions have better contracts. That makes Kanter's trade value nothing. He is the 3rd best version of an offense only big man on the block right now and 4th or 5th best, value wise, center that a team is willing to move. The better offensive only centers on the block are Monroe and Okafor. Monroe is more desirable because he is an expiring contract so a team can fell him out then make a decision about paying him in the off-season while maintaining flexibility. Okafor is more desirable because of his rookie contract and he can protect the rim. WCS is also rumored to be available and is more desirable than Kanter due to his rookie contract and rim protection, which is more valued in the NBA today than offense from a center. Noel is also supposed to be available and again is more desirable to trade for because of defense, rim protection and being an RFA which means you have more years of control over him than Kanter.

    Look at it this way. If suddenly Steph Curry, Russ, Chris Paul, Zach LaVine and Dragic were put on the trading block how many teams would really be interested in Dragic with the other guys available? That doesn't mean Dragic is a bad player. It means that there are better options and as long as they have a chance at getting one of the other four they are not making an offer on Dragic so Dragic would have no trade value in that scenario. Right now Kanter has no trade value because he is the inferior option of what is out there. Not because in a vacuum he has no value. In the current state of the NBA center who do not protect the rim are not well viewed. You can say block shots is the most overrated stat right now and I'd agree with you. However, that is still the current NBA culture. It's not going to change in the next few weeks to suddenly make an offense only center more valuable to NBA GMs than defense only centers or more balanced centers. It's also not going to make them want Kanter over cheaper options of the same type of player.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizz Fastfists View Post
    I've been over this repeatedly, but I'll try it one more time. There are multiple versions of Enes Kanter on the trading block right now. The other versions have better contracts. That makes Kanter's trade value nothing. He is the 3rd best version of an offense only big man on the block right now and 4th or 5th best, value wise, center that a team is willing to move. The better offensive only centers on the block are Monroe and Okafor. Monroe is more desirable because he is an expiring contract so a team can fell him out then make a decision about paying him in the off-season while maintaining flexibility. Okafor is more desirable because of his rookie contract and he can protect the rim. WCS is also rumored to be available and is more desirable than Kanter due to his rookie contract and rim protection, which is more valued in the NBA today than offense from a center. Noel is also supposed to be available and again is more desirable to trade for because of defense, rim protection and being an RFA which means you have more years of control over him than Kanter.

    Look at it this way. If suddenly Steph Curry, Russ, Chris Paul, Zach LaVine and Dragic were put on the trading block how many teams would really be interested in Dragic with the other guys available? That doesn't mean Dragic is a bad player. It means that there are better options and as long as they have a chance at getting one of the other four they are not making an offer on Dragic so Dragic would have no trade value in that scenario. Right now Kanter has no trade value because he is the inferior option of what is out there. Not because in a vacuum he has no value. In the current state of the NBA center who do not protect the rim are not well viewed. You can say block shots is the most overrated stat right now and I'd agree with you. However, that is still the current NBA culture. It's not going to change in the next few weeks to suddenly make an offense only center more valuable to NBA GMs than defense only centers or more balanced centers. It's also not going to make them want Kanter over cheaper options of the same type of player.
    That's more or less true, but it also depends on the teams needs. For the Thunder, Kanters scoring and rebounding is key. He is a better scorer and rebounder than all of the players you mentioned. Sure, defensively there are better ones and also from a contractual point of view maybe, but I dont think the Thunder would be better with Monroe, Okafor or WCS. Actually Im pretty sure they wouldnt.Therefore Im glad if GMs see it the same way then you do, because it makes no sense for me to trade Kanter right now.

  11. #41
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    I see the point about Kanter not being the best available option for other teams. However traded players are often paired with other players as well as draft picks. Kanter paired with Payne would be valuable enough to facilitate a trade.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizz Fastfists View Post
    I've been over this repeatedly, but I'll try it one more time. There are multiple versions of Enes Kanter on the trading block right now. The other versions have better contracts. That makes Kanter's trade value nothing. He is the 3rd best version of an offense only big man on the block right now and 4th or 5th best, value wise, center that a team is willing to move. The better offensive only centers on the block are Monroe and Okafor. Monroe is more desirable because he is an expiring contract so a team can fell him out then make a decision about paying him in the off-season while maintaining flexibility. Okafor is more desirable because of his rookie contract and he can protect the rim. WCS is also rumored to be available and is more desirable than Kanter due to his rookie contract and rim protection, which is more valued in the NBA today than offense from a center. Noel is also supposed to be available and again is more desirable to trade for because of defense, rim protection and being an RFA which means you have more years of control over him than Kanter.

    Look at it this way. If suddenly Steph Curry, Russ, Chris Paul, Zach LaVine and Dragic were put on the trading block how many teams would really be interested in Dragic with the other guys available? That doesn't mean Dragic is a bad player. It means that there are better options and as long as they have a chance at getting one of the other four they are not making an offer on Dragic so Dragic would have no trade value in that scenario. Right now Kanter has no trade value because he is the inferior option of what is out there. Not because in a vacuum he has no value. In the current state of the NBA center who do not protect the rim are not well viewed. You can say block shots is the most overrated stat right now and I'd agree with you. However, that is still the current NBA culture. It's not going to change in the next few weeks to suddenly make an offense only center more valuable to NBA GMs than defense only centers or more balanced centers. It's also not going to make them want Kanter over cheaper options of the same type of player.
    All those centers you mention are not going to give us better results they probably won't settle for coming off the bench and they are going to end up being paid more than Katner will in the long run anyhow so i really don't see how that justifies Kanter being a burden to the team?

    The problem to me is you think Kanter is overpaid by leaps and bounds because he is not a defensive specialist. I disagree that he is hugely overpaid compared to the market of bigs you will see getting paid next year. Remember we had to match his offer to keep him so apparently there are other teams that consider him worthy not just us. A scoring option like Kanter in the paint is not easy to come by that is one reason bigs get paid so much.. It's just not just being big, it's being big with talent to match it. Not saying he is a centerpiece because i don't think he is either but he's absolutely a key piece to have for a team that's building around a guy like Russ.. It's obvious the way they play together.. There are going to be very very few centers in the league that are going to be able to have the hands and finishing abilities of a guy like Kanter playing with Russ.

    I also know that puts us on the books for around $110mil next year.. i'm also hearing the projected cap is well over 100mil and the lux tax line is projected to be somewhere around $122-$125 mil next year..

    When payrolls are getting over 100mil as a standard and be under the cap.. A guy getting 17mil as a key piece to your success is not going to be overpaid.. I"m pretty sure there are plenty of other teams that are more than willing to pay Kanter his salary next year.. I also understand we may need to make some trades at some point due to the numbers we are looking at. But bottom line to me is at least in the immediate .. Kanter is a huge part of this team and it's success right now so unless there is a big name involved i don't see trading him.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by BIG EDDIE View Post
    That's more or less true, but it also depends on the teams needs. For the Thunder, Kanters scoring and rebounding is key. He is a better scorer and rebounder than all of the players you mentioned. Sure, defensively there are better ones and also from a contractual point of view maybe, but I dont think the Thunder would be better with Monroe, Okafor or WCS. Actually Im pretty sure they wouldnt.Therefore Im glad if GMs see it the same way then you do, because it makes no sense for me to trade Kanter right now.
    I'm not saying the Thunder should trade Kanter for any of them. I am saying that other teams would be better trading for them over Kanter. What teams are potentially in the market for a center? The Suns, who would probably rather have Noel or WCS over the other options as they have a lot of scoring guards and wings and need a defensive center as Tyson Chandler declines. The Knicks who would probably also have WCS or Noel as their top target to pair with Porzingis. Maybe NOLA, but they'd also want a defensive stud next to Davis and not another scorer. Maybe the Lakers, but they won't want two low post defensive duds and Randle is a double double guy for them so they'd want WCS or Noel.

    What team does anyone see out there that would be willing to trade a quality wing for Kanter? What team has an extra quality wing sitting around that needs an offensive minded center? I can't identify a single team. Who am I overlooking? You can't just sit there and say that Kanter has trade value because he scores and rebounds and teams need scoring and rebounding. You have to be able to identify a trade market for the player. Russ there is a clear market for. Boston wants him and would give up a significant package for him. The Lakers want him and would give up assets for him. Ibaka had a clear team that coveted him in the Magic. He was a perfect fit next to Vucevic. That trade was easy to see as a possibility because the pieces lined up so well. Where is the team that a Kanter trade lines up with? I can't find it. So in the real world Kanter has no trade value because he has no trade destination. It doesn't mean Kanter has no value. It means he has significantly more value to OKC than what they could get in return.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizz Fastfists View Post
    I'm not saying the Thunder should trade Kanter for any of them. I am saying that other teams would be better trading for them over Kanter. What teams are potentially in the market for a center? The Suns, who would probably rather have Noel or WCS over the other options as they have a lot of scoring guards and wings and need a defensive center as Tyson Chandler declines. The Knicks who would probably also have WCS or Noel as their top target to pair with Porzingis. Maybe NOLA, but they'd also want a defensive stud next to Davis and not another scorer. Maybe the Lakers, but they won't want two low post defensive duds and Randle is a double double guy for them so they'd want WCS or Noel.

    What team does anyone see out there that would be willing to trade a quality wing for Kanter? What team has an extra quality wing sitting around that needs an offensive minded center? I can't identify a single team. Who am I overlooking? You can't just sit there and say that Kanter has trade value because he scores and rebounds and teams need scoring and rebounding. You have to be able to identify a trade market for the player. Russ there is a clear market for. Boston wants him and would give up a significant package for him. The Lakers want him and would give up assets for him. Ibaka had a clear team that coveted him in the Magic. He was a perfect fit next to Vucevic. That trade was easy to see as a possibility because the pieces lined up so well. Where is the team that a Kanter trade lines up with? I can't find it. So in the real world Kanter has no trade value because he has no trade destination. It doesn't mean Kanter has no value. It means he has significantly more value to OKC than what they could get in return.
    I still think your short sighting in teams that would want Kanter and he'd fit if that were to happen.. Clippers are a prime example. I'm sure they'd take Kanter over Speights as their backup to Deandre.. especially in those late hack a jordan situations.. Mavs could use him with Bogut if you think Bogut is better.. otherwise you'd start Kanter instead.. That's just a couple off the top of my head.... I'm pretty sure there would be plenty of takers for Kanter if we were shopping him..

    Now us wanting something these teams would have to offer to make us better is a different story like you stated not a lot of great SF's out there to fill our need to the point we wouldn't need Kanter's contribution he provides. Kanter is such a huge impact right now it would take a big name to make a deal.

  15. #45
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    I would love to have Otto Porter over Rudy Gay. However it seems unlikely that we'll be able to make a move to get someone of that caliber. It's more likely the wizards keep Porter and trade Oubre Jr. Since Presti loves young guys, we make a move for a player like that, or be content with Grant. I wonder if we aren't able to make a move for a significant upgrade at SF, would we have been better off keeping Ilyasova? He's playing well for the 76ers.

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