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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizz Fastfists View Post
    I think you are greatly undervaluing Abrines. He's shooting 35% from 3 as a rookie in limited playing time and shot 41% from 3 in December. He's getting better as he adjusts to the NBA. He's not going to be James Harden, but he could be Riddick or Mike Miller. Your math is a bit off. OKC is currently $6M under the cap so with Abrines, $6M, Singler, $5M, and Payne, $2M, they could get a $18-19M player. It's a shame no one is going to give up one for those players. There is nothing possible to do to win now except pray to your deity that Abrines and Sabonis become studs before the start of next season. OKC is now on the treadmill of purgatory. They don't have the assets needed to trade for a difference maker and they don't have the cap room to pursue any in FA. They are what they are. A fringe playoff team that will get KO'd in the first round.

    Unless Presti can find a GM to hand him a stud player for Kanter there is no hope for OKC being a contender until after Russ is gone. As sad and painful as that is to accept as a fan it is the reality. Unless Presti can pull off some trade that is even more tilted in his favor than the Ibaka trade was there is no contending in OKC until they go back to rock bottom.
    I agree that Abrines is undervalued right now i think he has a lot of potential.. I'd like to see him strengthen up just a bit without losing any speed and gain a little more confidence and continue to improve on defense he could be a really good valuable player. I think he's absolutely a legit 40+% 3pt shooter he's just now getting his stride.

    I think you way undervalue Russ obviously.. If you traded him you are never ever guaranteed to be in the same position they are in right now.. that's a fact.. If you don't have a Russ caliber level player on your team then you are 100% guaranteed to be at BEST a fringe playoff team. The guys around Russ right now are young with a lot of potential yet. There's no telling who we could get with a MLE too. There's so many things that could happen but one things for sure you absolutely must have an all star player like Russ to work with.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by gthunder View Post
    I agree that Abrines is undervalued right now i think he has a lot of potential.. I'd like to see him strengthen up just a bit without losing any speed and gain a little more confidence and continue to improve on defense he could be a really good valuable player. I think he's absolutely a legit 40+% 3pt shooter he's just now getting his stride.

    I think you way undervalue Russ obviously.. If you traded him you are never ever guaranteed to be in the same position they are in right now.. that's a fact.. If you don't have a Russ caliber level player on your team then you are 100% guaranteed to be at BEST a fringe playoff team. The guys around Russ right now are young with a lot of potential yet. There's no telling who we could get with a MLE too. There's so many things that could happen but one things for sure you absolutely must have an all star player like Russ to work with.
    Do you believe that OKC has any chance against teams like GS/CLE/SAS/MEM for the next three years? We are going to have to see significant improvements from Adams/Sabonis/Abrines/Grant/Oladip for that to be even a chance.

    I guess it depends on what you want as a fan. Do you want to root for your superstar and watch enjoyable games? If so, then this OKC team will be great to watch.

    IF you are a fan that just wants to be great and wins a title while not caring about how many lean years you see then this is not the team for you. There is no route to a championship while Russ is still in his prime years.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizz Fastfists View Post
    I think you are greatly undervaluing Abrines. He's shooting 35% from 3 as a rookie in limited playing time and shot 41% from 3 in December. He's getting better as he adjusts to the NBA. He's not going to be James Harden, but he could be Riddick or Mike Miller. Your math is a bit off. OKC is currently $6M under the cap so with Abrines, $6M, Singler, $5M, and Payne, $2M, they could get a $18-19M player. It's a shame no one is going to give up one for those players. There is nothing possible to do to win now except pray to your deity that Abrines and Sabonis become studs before the start of next season. OKC is now on the treadmill of purgatory. They don't have the assets needed to trade for a difference maker and they don't have the cap room to pursue any in FA. They are what they are. A fringe playoff team that will get KO'd in the first round.

    Unless Presti can find a GM to hand him a stud player for Kanter there is no hope for OKC being a contender until after Russ is gone. As sad and painful as that is to accept as a fan it is the reality. Unless Presti can pull off some trade that is even more tilted in his favor than the Ibaka trade was there is no contending in OKC until they go back to rock bottom.
    No I'm not undervaluing Abrines. I agree that he has tons of potential to be a Reddick type shooter but IMO we aren't as far from contention as you put us. If trading a young player with potential will bring in someone that can open up the floor for Russell and play consistent offense and defense then I'm all for it.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder in NY View Post
    Do you believe that OKC has any chance against teams like GS/CLE/SAS/MEM for the next three years? We are going to have to see significant improvements from Adams/Sabonis/Abrines/Grant/Oladip for that to be even a chance.

    I guess it depends on what you want as a fan. Do you want to root for your superstar and watch enjoyable games? If so, then this OKC team will be great to watch.

    IF you are a fan that just wants to be great and wins a title while not caring about how many lean years you see then this is not the team for you. There is no route to a championship while Russ is still in his prime years.
    I think we can compete with SAS, Houston and Memphis right now. San Antonio generally has lots of trouble with Russ and our team length on defense. I think the Warriors will be beatable over a 7 game series and while I don't think we can take them this year. I think we could beat them next year or the year after. Not to mention I could see them getting beat by Cleveland and one of the 4 all stars gets traded.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder in NY View Post
    I guess it depends on what you want as a fan. Do you want to root for your superstar and watch enjoyable games? If so, then this OKC team will be great to watch.

    IF you are a fan that just wants to be great and wins a title while not caring about how many lean years you see then this is not the team for you. There is no route to a championship while Russ is still in his prime years.
    So much truth!!!! I'd rather be contending for the top pick than a 6th-8th seed. Some people seem to be content with a good team. Nothing wrong with that, but it's never who I'll be. Sports are slanted that two best spots are first and last. Being 6th-12th is the worst spot you can be in any sport.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizz Fastfists View Post
    So much truth!!!! I'd rather be contending for the top pick than a 6th-8th seed. Some people seem to be content with a good team. Nothing wrong with that, but it's never who I'll be. Sports are slanted that two best spots are first and last. Being 6th-12th is the worst spot you can be in any sport.
    I don't think it's that people are content with a good team as much as we don't think we are that far away from a great team. I would agree with your reasoning if we didn't have one of the youngest rosters in the NBA. If at the end of next year we have regressed or see no hope of improvement, I wouldn't mind if major changes are made. I think it's very possible that Oladipo takes the next step and becomes a star. Hes been here briefly and and got derailed a little bit by his injury. As Adams gets healthier he looks better and better. There is your core-one superstar, one potential all star, and a solid top ten big man. Is that equal to the big three in Cleveland or Golden State? I doubt it, but we don't know yet. The sample size is too small. However those two teams don't have the depth or youth we have. I personally think Sabonis is very much capable of taking a huge leap next year. Hes versatile, smart and efficient. Obviously we need to see development somewhat quickly as time is limited. I'll be honest, I worry less about us building a winning roster around RW than I do that he will never really learn to trust his teammates and learn to make smarter decisions.

    Tanking is not a guaranteed way to rebuild. It's very easy, even for goood gm's, to struggle for years. Not every draft will be as loaded as this one and there is no guarantee you will get the first pick. Some years there is a huge difference between the player picked first and the one picked fourth. I'm just curious if in the modern NBA there has ever been a playoff team with a superstar and a young roster, just decide to blow it up. Perhaps there has been such a team, but I can't recall it.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder in NY View Post
    Do you believe that OKC has any chance against teams like GS/CLE/SAS/MEM for the next three years? We are going to have to see significant improvements from Adams/Sabonis/Abrines/Grant/Oladip for that to be even a chance.

    I guess it depends on what you want as a fan. Do you want to root for your superstar and watch enjoyable games? If so, then this OKC team will be great to watch.

    IF you are a fan that just wants to be great and wins a title while not caring about how many lean years you see then this is not the team for you. There is no route to a championship while Russ is still in his prime years.
    The problem is you make it out like if we were to trade RUss we would magically in 3/4 years be title contenders again and that's just not the case either. There are no givens that anything good would come out of Russ trade either. YOu might get some good players.. might even get an all star.. That doesn't mean your going to be any better than you are today.

    Now if you ask me what i think the better path is to possibly get to the point of title contention again? Which is the real question.. To me that is easy.. You put your chips on a MVP top player in the world Russ.. You can have a # 1 draft pick for the next 3/4 years and never end up with a player as good as him.. odds are you won't..

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizz Fastfists View Post
    So much truth!!!! I'd rather be contending for the top pick than a 6th-8th seed. Some people seem to be content with a good team. Nothing wrong with that, but it's never who I'll be. Sports are slanted that two best spots are first and last. Being 6th-12th is the worst spot you can be in any sport.
    Your still basing all your chips on a draft pick that is going to be better than a MVP Russell Westbrook... and then your gambling on putting together a squad around him that will at some point be better than the team we've had for the last several years. All of that is speculation too.

    Why is it that you think a rebuild would somehow bring this team to a title? If you have some kind of visionary ability that I don't know about i'd love to hear it. I'll put my chips on a guaranteed player because without a question you aren't going to win a title without at LEAST one of those types of players. TO start over you are banking on drafting a couple top 5 players in the next 3/4 years is quite the undertaking. What happened with KD/Russ/JH is something that is so rare we probably won't see it again in our lifetime. That isn't something that just can be repeated.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by gthunder View Post
    The problem is you make it out like if we were to trade RUss we would magically in 3/4 years be title contenders again and that's just not the case either. There are no givens that anything good would come out of Russ trade either. YOu might get some good players.. might even get an all star.. That doesn't mean your going to be any better than you are today.

    Now if you ask me what i think the better path is to possibly get to the point of title contention again? Which is the real question.. To me that is easy.. You put your chips on a MVP top player in the world Russ.. You can have a # 1 draft pick for the next 3/4 years and never end up with a player as good as him.. odds are you won't..
    Russ is not the best player in the NBA.

    Further, what moves or improvements will be needed to be better than either GS/CLE/SAS/MEM in the next 3 years?

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by gthunder View Post
    Your still basing all your chips on a draft pick that is going to be better than a MVP Russell Westbrook... and then your gambling on putting together a squad around him that will at some point be better than the team we've had for the last several years. All of that is speculation too.

    Why is it that you think a rebuild would somehow bring this team to a title? If you have some kind of visionary ability that I don't know about i'd love to hear it. I'll put my chips on a guaranteed player because without a question you aren't going to win a title without at LEAST one of those types of players. TO start over you are banking on drafting a couple top 5 players in the next 3/4 years is quite the undertaking. What happened with KD/Russ/JH is something that is so rare we probably won't see it again in our lifetime. That isn't something that just can be repeated.
    The warriors and Cavs basically bottomed out for a few years. You draft a bunch of high end talent and keep your roster flexibility open to absorb a superstar that becomes available either via trade or FA.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder in NY View Post
    The warriors and Cavs basically bottomed out for a few years. You draft a bunch of high end talent and keep your roster flexibility open to absorb a superstar that becomes available either via trade or FA.
    The Cavs bottomed out the Warriors didn't they just got better and better and got a good coach that help them elevate their game. The couple of years before their title they were no better off than the rest of the west but they got a new coach, new direction and they took their game to the next level and took the NBA by surprise. They were NOT considered favorites the year they won the title..

    I know you don't think Russ is the best player in the NBA but i think the real issue is you and at least one other think Russ is the complete wrong guy for the team and don't value him as even a top 10 guy much less a league MVP and leader. So it's an easy decision for you to say blow up the team it's never going to go anywhere because in your opinion we don't even have a top 10 guy much less anyone that can lead the team to a title. That's where we disagree.. I think Russ absolutely can lead the team to a title with enough talent and coaching around him. If i didn't believe that then i'd be all for rebuilding as well.

    There are a few things that can happen to get there but it's mostly from player development with the team we have. I think Vic, Adams, Sabonis, Kanter, Abrines all have a lot of growth potential if they are put in the right environment with leadership and coaching. I think they are in that environment right now and this is the first season (outside Adams and Kanter) that they have played together and i think they will continue to grow as they play more. This is the first season they have played not being in KD's shadow and i think that with any leadership role that Russ is taking on it's going to take some time to learn how to get his guys to elevate their game. Russ has the ability to do that he's shown it over and over..

    Nobody on here can tell me that when Russ is not playing to his top level as a leader and PG getting these guys easy shots we are not one of the best teams in the NBA. It's a matter of getting the rest of the team closer to Russ level and being consistent with it. At least one of those guys like Vic will have to be able to take over when Russ is having off moments and shine.. Vic is almost there before he got hurt. It could end up being Adams that ends up dominating games or Kanter he's already shown he can do that as well.. It's a matter of being consistent at it. Then there is the matter of close finishing games that need polishing up by Russ being the leader.

    There are areas to work on but they can be improved on and I think in time they will be improved on. There is a lot of potential with this team and we haven't seen how good they can be yet with some of our new players that are young and the first season without KD and having Russ lead things and we are sitting at .600 for the year and solid in the playoffs so i don't understand the logic of wanting to rebuild at this point as most people don't.. Unless of course you think Russ is not even a legit top 10 player then i can see your way of thinking.. outside of that i just don't understand and i have yet to see any convincing argument for it other than you think somehow magically we will rebuild and be BETTER than we are today with unknown unnamed players from the draft.

  12. #117
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    What do you view as realistic ceilings for Sabonis and Abrines? Russ, Oladipo, Adams and Kanter are who they are. Does Sabonis become Ryan Anderson? That seems like a fitting comparison with Sabonis playing a stretch four. Does Abrines become J.J. Reddick? Again, that seems fair giving their similar skill sets. Assuming those as realistic growths does that make OKC a contender? Of course we are talking about 2 years for Sabonis and Abrines to develop into those players and Russ will be 30 by then and the decline will be starting due to age.

    Russ/Payne
    Oladipo/Reddick
    Roberson/Grant/Huestis
    Anderson/Lauvergne
    Adams/Kanter

    Would you consider that roster a contender? Does it stack up with the Spurs, Warriors and Cavs? Does it stack up with the 2nd tier Rockets, Raptors, Celtics and Clippers? Or is it in the 3rd tier with Memphis, the Hornets, Utah and Atlanta?

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizz Fastfists View Post
    What do you view as realistic ceilings for Sabonis and Abrines? Russ, Oladipo, Adams and Kanter are who they are. Does Sabonis become Ryan Anderson? That seems like a fitting comparison with Sabonis playing a stretch four. Does Abrines become J.J. Reddick? Again, that seems fair giving their similar skill sets. Assuming those as realistic growths does that make OKC a contender? Of course we are talking about 2 years for Sabonis and Abrines to develop into those players and Russ will be 30 by then and the decline will be starting due to age.

    Russ/Payne
    Oladipo/Reddick
    Roberson/Grant/Huestis
    Anderson/Lauvergne
    Adams/Kanter

    Would you consider that roster a contender? Does it stack up with the Spurs, Warriors and Cavs? Does it stack up with the 2nd tier Rockets, Raptors, Celtics and Clippers? Or is it in the 3rd tier with Memphis, the Hornets, Utah and Atlanta?
    I think we are at a minimum already at the 3rd tier of teams.. i mean we are in the playoff picture that's better than most teams at this point.

    I don't think we know yet how far these young guys are going to go and Adams is not finished developing he's a lot better than last year so until you have a season where his numbers and contribution level off how can you say he's peaked? Maybe he has i don't know. Kanter is the same way. All these guys are in a new system with Russ at the helm and most have not ever played a full season with each other so there is a lot that we dont know yet.

    What do we know for sure? We are sitting in the playoff picture right now with a very young crew that haven't played together long at all and the 1st season of Russ leading the way. Again i just don't know what the convincing argument is to give all that up for a completely new start unless you think Russ is not a top 5 guy that can lead the team to a title. If that's your argument that i understand where your coming from.. I don't agree.. but at least it makes sense.. to just blow up the team for the sake of thinking we can draft our way into a better team doesn't make any sense to me when you haven't reached your full potential with what you got.

  14. #119
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    We are in the playoffs by default. The Thunder would be lucky to win a first round series this year.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizz Fastfists View Post
    So much truth!!!! I'd rather be contending for the top pick than a 6th-8th seed. Some people seem to be content with a good team. Nothing wrong with that, but it's never who I'll be. Sports are slanted that two best spots are first and last. Being 6th-12th is the worst spot you can be in any sport.
    Who wants to pay thousands of dollars a year to watch a team that isn't entertaining? I know I don't. Of course I'd rather win a title or two but that is never a guarantee as well all learned. And I'm not going to empty my wallet to watch a rebuild. If they do it, fine, but I'll watch from my living room. How is a rebuild going to go in front of 12k a night?

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