That might be.. only 4 teams in West are going to win a first round series... I guess that's the reason we should blow up the team?
Originally Posted by Thunder in NY
exactly my point. If there is some way to guarantee that we are going to be a better team after a rebuild i'm all ears but i think the perception is with some that we are somehow going to duplicate another KD, Russ, JH class again and i just think that is extremely unlikely. If we are LUCKY we get another player as good as Russ but that is unlikely as well. Presti is a good recruiter for young talent in the draft no question but he's not always right either.. The likely scenario is that we get right back to pretty much where we are right here and now as a playoff team but short of a title contention team.
Originally Posted by cjthunder
If it was as easy as rebuilding then there would be a lot of other teams rebuilding that are in worse position than we are to compete for a title. We aren't a big city market to attract talent to OKC... Just a simple fact... There's a reason why so many small market teams never make it to title contention level.
Since the 1960's you have very few small market teams that have been title contenders..
1971 Bucks is the lone exception to win a title.. There's a few small market teams that made it to the finals.. Utah made it a couple years.. Orlando made it a couple of years.. and OKC in 2012.
Pretty much everything outside of that is going to be your typical LA, NY, Boston, Philly, Chicago big city market teams.. It's just the tradition the best players are going to want to go to these cities and play.
So we can blow up and rebuild the team all we want but the likely scenario is that we are never going to be in any better position than we are right now. We are extremely fortunate that Russ extended and Presti has done fantastic getting foreign talent that aren't as effected by the big city markets.. at least not yet.. If i'm gambling on the best way forward i think you stick with what you got and keep working at it.
While I agree with your basic premise that we shouldn't be blowing up the roster, I think I define "big city market" differently than you do. San Antonio has won multiple NBA titles in a market very similar to OKC. Detroit as well. Indianapolis was in title contention for over a decade, making the NBA finals multiple times. Toronto is a contender, playing in a cold-weather town in another COUNTRY. Cleveland is the defending NBA champion, in a market very similar (most people would say INFERIOR) to OKC, attracting two big time free agents. There's no beaches or mountains in Dallas or Portland, either, and they've won NBA Championships.
Originally Posted by gthunder
No, I think good management and good coaching and good players are more important than being in a mega-market. How many titles have the New York/Brooklyn Nets won? When was the last time the New York Knicks were in title contention? I think there's only 5-6 franchises that have the sort of pull that you're talking about because of where they are and who they are (Fakers, Knicks, Heat, Celtics, Bulls, maybe the Nets or Clippers). Most of them are poorly managed.
We gotta keep plugging away, building our reputation as a fan base that blindly supports our team, selling out games and yelling like crazed college kids. THAT will be the thing that can keep us in contention, along with good management and treating the players right when they get here.
Indiana was int he NBA finals in 2000 never won it. I'm talking title contention teams where they made it to the finals best in the west/east.
Originally Posted by Jimmy Early
I disagree on SAS I knew that would come up but they have over 1.4 mil people in the city alone and pretty much everyone outside of metro Dallas/Houston so their market is huge and they have built a rich tradition for that town since Popvich came in.
Detroit before the bust was a big city market and Cleveland has the state of Ohio following them. It's not just the huge city there are other factors involved mainly having the $$ to invest into a franchise and tradition and the perception of the NBA players if they are choosing a location. OKC is new and small and never had a rich tradition in basketball.. It's going to be hard to attract NBA players right now and that's why our record sucks at it.
I do agree that we have to keep building on reputation and build the NBA tradition as a successful franchise that is a good place to be. That's another reason i think it would be a huge mistake right now to try and rebuild because if they do that and the rebuild fails and the team goes years without even making the playoffs it's going to be hard to change that perception as an "expansion team" that doesn't have success. It would give credence to us being a lucky team that drafted KD in seattle but once he left the franchise fell. I don't want that to happen i don't think that will happen and i think it's important like you said to keep selling tkts and building off what OKC Thunder has started in the city/state and keep building off that. Having a player like Russ helps in that more than anything else. Rebuild is a gamble.
For those that want to know.. Here's the list of NBA finals appearances
Boston - 21
Lakers - 31
76ers - 9
GSW - 8
NYK - 8
Detroit - 7
Chicago - 6 (all won BTW)
Spurs - 6
Miami - 5
Houston - 4
Atlanta - 4
Washington - 4
Cleveland and Portland and Seattle 3 each
Bucks, Mavericks, Suns, Jazz, Nets, Magic have made it to the finals twice in their history
Pacers and Kings and OKC have made it to the finals once
Clippers, Grizz, Hornets, Nuggets, Pelicans, Raptors, T-pups have never made it to the NBA finals..
This is the entire history of the NBA. While things have gotten better since caps were put in place the traditions of these franchises that OKC is competing with is quite an undertaking.. It's one of the reasons .. to me anyhow... that it would be going against the odds to rebuild a team and expect that you are going to be any better than we are today. I like Presti and his draft abilities but i don't like the odds of what he is up against if you are expecting him to create a NBA finals team out of the draft..
The NBA is changing. When was the last time the Lakers signed a marquee FA? Who has Boston signed recently that was a superstar? Outside of Horford I can't think of anyone Boston signed as a significant FA. I'm not taking about guys they traded for, because that has nothing to do with market size. How about the Knicks? They traded for 'Melo and Rose. Most of that list results from building teams through drafts and trades. Shaq was the last significant FA signing the Lakers had and that was 20 years ago!
Miami drafted Wade and traded for Shaq. Yes, LeBron and Bosh signed there to play with Wade, but that was planned out by them to attempt to get rings and Miami isn't a big market. The Bulls drafted Jordan and Pippen. The only difference between OKC and the Spurs right now is that the Spurs players stayed there. Maybe the next time OKC has a contender the players will stay. We won't know that until there is a successful rebuild.
And what do you think Russell Westbrook just did yet you are ready to throw him out to another team? You think that would help the image of OKC and additional players?
Originally Posted by Kizz Fastfists
It's not just all star players, it's contributing players when they are being offered in the FA market. Why hasn't OKC gotten anyone decent in FA market since it's inception when we were legit western conference top 3 team? It's not like we didn't try or have the money to pay them.. Why do guys like LMA, Pau Gasol, PPierce, JJohnson just to name a few go to bigger market cities? And i'm sorry if you think Miami is not a big city market with a lot to offer I think most of the free world would disagree with you on that. The bulls drafted the best player to ever play the game and outside of him never even made it back to the finals. Probably because it's too damn cold in Chicago.. coast line cities have it best with the big city market and atmosphere that NBA players tend to want to be at. It's just an advantage OKC is not going to have. I agree that we need to draft some talent and we have.. but at some point you gotta fill in missing pieces via trade in our case because FA market probably going to be a lot tougher road. That's why i think a rebuild is such a gamble and signing Vic and Adams was a good thing. We have a lot of young talent RIGHT NOW on this team.. and a LOT of potential with who we got. I'm giving you all kinds of arguments and facts on why i think we do not trade Russ and try to rebuild.. I have yet to see an argument for the other side to rebuild. Just blindly saying we will never be a title contender with this squad is not only speculation that our current roster has peaked (which it hasn't) it's even worse speculation to say that rebuilding will make us better for all the reason's i've put out there.
Russ maximized his career earnings. He set himself up to not have to sign a 1+1 like kd did. Both Russ and Harden did the exact same thing, which was very smart for both of them. They signed new deals that will make them FAs when they can get a 35% max instead of a 30% max. Russ got an extra $8M in his pocket for signing that contract that he would not have gotten if he hadn't. He signs a one year extension, gets a free $8M and he can sign for 35% without having to handcuff a team to resign him consecutive off-seasons with cap room like kd did to Golden State. Russ took care of Russ which is what he should do.
Are you calling San Antonio and Utah big markets? LMA and Pau Gasol are both in SA and Joe Johnson is in Utah. Miami's got a nice beach, blah, blah, blah, but it is not in the top 15 markets in the NBA.
You can take Kyle Korver off the list of trade targets. He's headed to Cleveland.
Ok so in your mind Russ didn't sign to stay at OKC or show any loyalty at all he just did it for the money..,. ok maybe you are right i guess we will see but i don't think that's the case from the things i've heard..
Originally Posted by Kizz Fastfists
SAS yes i call a big market and a big coach that has built a tradition there with their success that players want to be a part of.. Utah no but JJ is not the player that he once was either.
Maybe Presti can bring in another great defensive athlete who can't shoot. Or actually play defense for that matter.
We always seem to have at least two on the roster.
Originally Posted by Knrstz
Picking in the 20s that is the current projection. Either a draft and stash or a defensive minded forward depending on which mock I look at. In order to get a player that would have a chance at improving the roster, at least in the short term, they would need to move into the top 12. There they would have a shot at Terrance Ferguson or OG Anuoby who would be nice fits on the roster. Both should be 3&D rotation wings as rookies, but I'm not sure how Presti moves around on draft day to get a player that could contribute right away and with 9 players under contract in addition to the options on Grant and Christon and RFAs Lauvergne and Roberson I could see a draft and stash with Presti bringing back the current roster minus Collison and maybe Morrow.
Originally Posted by Knrstz
I'm reading a lot about Anuoby. He seems to be getting a lot of attention. I doubt he drops far enough for us to get him.
Originally Posted by Kizz Fastfists
I'd be more interested to see if any type of trade is made between now and deadline before looking to the draft.