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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTTHUNDER View Post
    Plainsman,

    I completely agree with you (other than the Thunder getting by the Lakers I'll get to that later ) about trusting the Thunder ownership and SP. The biggest + for the Thunder in this whole thing is Sam Presti. If he says JH is not worth a max deal than JH is not worth a max deal. Presti is one of the best talent evaluators in any major sports league IMHO. Outside of KD which any idiot (other than Portland thank god for dumb people) could see was going to be a star Presti has drafted based on a formula and image that have led to the Thunder we see today. Westbrook, Harden, bringing in Perk, Sef, etc. have been moves that have been questioned by many yet look at the results. Simmons is a hack who at times can be funny but has never had to root for a team that didn't wipe their butt with $100 dollar bills. I say trust SP and the Thunder ownership to do what is best for this team they haven't steered us wrong yet. I still say if the foul on LBJ is called in game two the Thunder leave OKC up 2-0 and are the champs today IMHO.

    As far as the Lakers go this year. I see a recipe for disaster Nash and Kobe both need the ball to be effective. DH needs the ball to be effective and Gasol needs room to be effective. There is only one ball for Nash and KB and only so much space in the key for DH and Gasol. Plus the biggest downfall for LA this year will be on the defensive side of the ball, with the biggest question being who guards KD? Until a team in the west can put someone on KD who is only getting better the Thunder will be the team to beat. LA will be tough but the old legs and CHUCKER KOBE will be their ultimate undoing against the Thunder.

    I love to read this board especially since I am from MT and get little to no Thunder news up here. KEEP IT UP AND GO THUNDER.
    Good to have you aboard. A couple of things your post makes me ponder though... Can't blame Portland too much for drafting a big man at a time when really good big men were, and still are hard to come by. Hindsight 20/20 right. Secondly, we weren't going to win the championship no matter what. They dominated us, and it just wasn't our time. I do believe it made us much stronger though, so no harm no foul. Third, I completely agree that a total Laker meltdown this year is a possibility. And the thought of that makes me absolutely giddy

    As far as the article goes, he seems to be grasping at something to write about and trying to be the authority on it, when it's quite obvious he has no more insight into the thing than anybody else outside the organization. Makes for fun conjecture though I suppose, which is really what drives the sports forums and such.

  2. #17
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    Zach Lowe also thinks the Thunder were a bad call at the end of Game 2, from winning a championship.

    He was on Simmon's podcast today, starts at about the 29 minute mark .

    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...-and-zach-lowe

    Lowe and Wojo are far better NBA writers than Simmons. I tuned into the Simmons podcast just to hear Lowe, who I enjoyed when he was with SI.

    Simmons is fricken Celtic fan. All he wants to talk NBA , is so he can talk about the Celtics. And how can anybody take his opinion seriously when he's a fricken unabashed fan ?

    He tries to make some kind of point , that Thunder owners should not be crying about the luxury tax in a small market, when they moved the team from a " booming Seattle " , a much larger market. And Simmons is not the only NBA national writer whose trying to make that point, others don't think we have any grounds to complain about the advantage the Lakers and other large markets have.

    Simmons also continues to propagate the idea that Bennett et al did something underhanded, or shady, or sordid, or crooked ...... to " steal " the team from Seattle. He never has exactly said what that was, but they leave that idea in the reader's mind.

  3. #18
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    I have never liked Bill Simmons/Truman Capote.
    Of course he likes the team, who wouldn't? He panders to Seattle all the time. Not only does he not like the owners, but continues to belittle OKC.
    For apologists; yes, I'm sure he has talent. He uses it to our detriment...usually.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plainsman View Post
    No, our owners did not steal that team, that team was leaving Seattle , no matter, evidently you don't visit the NBA Talk board here very often .

    You actually, have no clue. If you say the team was stolen, that tells me you've got no idea.

    Simmons is a hack, he writes more about pop culture and soap operas than basketball, no where is he near the best hoops writer ........... if you think he is, then you got a lot to learn.

    Show me where Presti said the Thunder can not pay the max, I wanna link ........... not one of your brilliant opinions.

    Show me the link

    “By the same token, we've been very upfront and transparent with everybody that we have some inherent challenges that we face as an organization as a result of the new collective bargaining agreement,” the Thunder general manager continued. “I know we'd love to have him here. I think James would like to be here as well. But at the end of the day ... you have to find a way to make it work for everybody.”

    Read more: http://newsok.com/thunder-signing-ja...#ixzz292hEHwxi


    What part of the CBA do you think Presti is referring to? It's the luxury tax.

    You are correct that I don't visit the NBA Talk board very often.

    Bill Simmons "Book of Basketball" is generally regarded as one of the best books ever written about the NBA game. So, for you to say he's a hack lets me know that you "got a lot to learn". You and I are both Thunder fans, so, I want to make it clear that whether we "stole" the team or saved the team or whatever, you and I are benefiting big time and I love it. Most of the country feels like we "stole" the team. They feel like our owners lied (which has been proven in emails uncovered since then). I'M GLAD THEY DID. I LOVE THE THUNDER. It's okay for national media types to be upset with our ownership. I'm not upset with our ownership. I talked to Simmons on the floor before Game 1 vs. the Heat last season. He LOVES Oklahoma City. He loves the atmosphere, he loves our players, he doesn't like that our team came from Seattle. Your statement that he "writes more about pop culture and soap operas than basketball" is a stretch and it tells me you aren't into pop culture humor. He still knows his stuff. He writes more about basketball than anything. He does mix in the pop culture. I would love one specific reference of him talking about "soap operas" though.

    The fact that he is writing long articles about the Thunder is GREAT for OKC. Having a team that the whole world is interested in comes with all kinds of publicity. This article was good publicity. You read one line and discarded the whole article, which has a lot of very valid points. I hope you aren't irresponsible enough to pick your presidential candidate based on one thing.

  5. #20
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    Show me where Presti said he won't pay a Harden a max salary and where they are " claiming they are just a poor, small-market team " .

    You've not done that yet, you've just provided proof of what I said above, Presti has established a bargaining position. This is all posturing and you are too young to understand what you're seeing, and how Simmons is spinning this.

    If you don't know when you've eaten spin, then you need to back away.

    SHOW ME THE LINK

    It make a rats patoot what positive things Simmons writes about the Thunder, this is not college, Thunder are not recrootin.

    I could go through Simmons column and pick out a lot unsubstantiated crap, that he throws out because he has friends who are Sonics fans.

    That Mr Broncho, is the epitome of HACK . When he uses his platform to push an agenda for his friends, that's HACK.

    Just exactly what is your definition of the word " stole " ?

    If you sit back and let anyone drag our owners through the mud, then you are nothing but a little ingrate.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by bronchothunder View Post
    Read more:

    Bill Simmons "Book of Basketball" is generally regarded as one of the best books ever written about the NBA game. So, for you to say he's a hack lets me know that you "got a lot to learn". You and I are both Thunder fans, so, I want to make it clear that whether we "stole" the team or saved the team or whatever, you and I are benefiting big time and I love it. Most of the country feels like we "stole" the team. They feel like our owners lied (which has been proven in emails uncovered since then). I'M GLAD THEY DID. I LOVE THE THUNDER. It's okay for national media types to be upset with our ownership. I'm not upset with our ownership. I talked to Simmons on the floor before Game 1 vs. the Heat last season. He LOVES Oklahoma City. He loves the atmosphere, he loves our players, he doesn't like that our team came from Seattle. Your statement that he "writes more about pop culture and soap operas than basketball" is a stretch and it tells me you aren't into pop culture humor. He still knows his stuff. He writes more about basketball than anything. He does mix in the pop culture. I would love one specific reference of him talking about "soap operas" though.

    The fact that he is writing long articles about the Thunder is GREAT for OKC. Having a team that the whole world is interested in comes with all kinds of publicity. This article was good publicity. You read one line and discarded the whole article, which has a lot of very valid points. I hope you aren't irresponsible enough to pick your presidential candidate based on one thing.
    Well, we've rehashed the relocation thing over and over so I don't want to delve too deeply into it but if I'm going to touch on the "lying" or "stealing" angle, I'm just going to remind everyone that Clay made it clear from the time he bought the team that he was giving Seattle a year to get an arena deal done or that he would consider his options. It's hard to conclude that he lied about anything based on that.

    Regarding emails, there were definitely minority owners who made it clear that they wanted to move to OKC but we knew that long before Aubrey sent his email. We had minority owners who bailed out when it looked like the PBC was going to make an effort to keep the team in Seattle. Had their been some sort of grand conspiracy to leave Seattle, I don't think those other guys would've jumped ship.

    As for the article itself, I actually think Simmons made some good points but like Plainsman says, Simmons seems to be jumping to the conclusion that the ownership group wants to let Harden leave. His article suggests that the owners would be fools to let him go for that reason only and that they'll lose money in the long run due to earlier playoff exits resulting in less revenue. I agree with this but again, there's no proof anywhere that the owners have taken that stance. Simmons is either giving them a warning or grasping at straws but nothing more at this point.

  7. #22
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    I can see that we are going to have to agree to disagree. I like Simmons. You don't. That must mean I am 19 years old and dumb. Maybe one day, I will be enlightened. I don't see anything wrong with Simmons taking Presti's "bargaining position" and writing about it as fact. If Presti is going to say that the CBA limits what we can do, why can't Simmons build the bridge to the conclusion that it means we can't pay the tax so we can't pay the max. Other writers have drawn that conclusion. I get it that you don't like Simmons's smart ass writing style. That's fine, but we are arguing over semantics.

    As it relates to our owners, if you don't think they have ALL done some slimy things in their careers (Thunder or other private business) then I have some land for you. People with their level of wealth usually have those skeletons. So, for me to "sit back and let anyone drag our owners through the mud" makes me a "little ingrate"? I don't have to blindly defend our ownership. I'm glad they did what they did. I'm glad they are our ownership group. I'm glad we aren't dealing with George Shinn. I'm glad we have very civic minded owners that have a passion for improving our city. All I said was that the majority of this country feels like we stole the team because we bought it, said we intended to keep it there, and things have come out since that show that it was never our intention. I knew they weren't going to stay there. You did too. It just looks shady to people that aren't from here.

    For the record, I am 35, college educated and manage about $80 million dollars worth of business for a major medical device company. I do know a little about negotiating. I am not too young to understand what I am seeing.

    This is why I don't have thousands of posts on a message board. I come here for news on my favorite team and, once in a while, throw in my two cents. I don't like assuming things about people based on their posts. You have done nothing but insinuate that I am a young kid who doesn't know anything. Maybe we should meet for a beverage at a game sometime. You can make your judgments of me while we are sitting at the same table and not anonymously through a computer.

  8. #23
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    The emails exchanged by the owners, were done in the spring of 2007, after the Washington state legislature refused to even discuss a new arena. For all practical purposes, it was over then.

    Aubrey McClendon made a statement to the Journal Record newspaper in August of 2007, where he said they never intended to keep the team in Seattle. At that time , it was all over but the crying. Bennett's one year deadline expired in October of 2007 and there was absolutely no movement on any arena plan in Seattle and they were not going to put one together in two months.

    And of course they never intended to keep the team in Seattle, that was why Schultz asked Bennett to give them one year before moving the team. Schultz wanted the threat of the team leaving , to motivate a plan for a new arena. He says this much, I can find the statement. Bennett never promised to keep the team there, if he does that, then the threat of moving is lost.

    DUH !!

    Bennett gave them one year and then he was moving the team. No matter what they said in email, Seattle had one year. He kept his promise.

    This has been hashed out over and over and over, but idiots like Simmons don't want to learn the truth. He's a sports moron.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bronchothunder View Post
    I can see that we are going to have to agree to disagree. I like Simmons. You don't. That must mean I am 19 years old and dumb. Maybe one day, I will be enlightened. I don't see anything wrong with Simmons taking Presti's "bargaining position" and writing about it as fact. If Presti is going to say that the CBA limits what we can do, why can't Simmons build the bridge to the conclusion that it means we can't pay the tax so we can't pay the max. Other writers have drawn that conclusion. I get it that you don't like Simmons's smart ass writing style. That's fine, but we are arguing over semantics.

    As it relates to our owners, if you don't think they have ALL done some slimy things in their careers (Thunder or other private business) then I have some land for you. People with their level of wealth usually have those skeletons. So, for me to "sit back and let anyone drag our owners through the mud" makes me a "little ingrate"? I don't have to blindly defend our ownership. I'm glad they did what they did. I'm glad they are our ownership group. I'm glad we aren't dealing with George Shinn. I'm glad we have very civic minded owners that have a passion for improving our city. All I said was that the majority of this country feels like we stole the team because we bought it, said we intended to keep it there, and things have come out since that show that it was never our intention. I knew they weren't going to stay there. You did too. It just looks shady to people that aren't from here.

    For the record, I am 35, college educated and manage about $80 million dollars worth of business for a major medical device company. I do know a little about negotiating. I am not too young to understand what I am seeing.

    This is why I don't have thousands of posts on a message board. I come here for news on my favorite team and, once in a while, throw in my two cents. I don't like assuming things about people based on their posts. You have done nothing but insinuate that I am a young kid who doesn't know anything. Maybe we should meet for a beverage at a game sometime. You can make your judgments of me while we are sitting at the same table and not anonymously through a computer.

    Where is the direct quote from presti claiming to be poor and not paying Harden the max ?

    You talk around it , but you haven't backed it up yet.

    If you can not tell public posturing and negotiating from spin, then it must be real easy to make a living in your business.

  10. #25
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    It was impossible for Bennett to " steal " the team.

    He was not only tending to his personal interest, but he was doing the work of the NBA. The NBA ( meaning David Stern and the owners ) did not want to lose the Seattle market in a trade for OKC. I mean DUH again, how stupid would anyone be who believed the NBA did not want a team in Seattle.

    But that franchise was in trouble with a bad lease and a bad arena. And the NBA had to do something.

    Bennett could not move the team on his own accord. He had to have the approval of the NBA Board of Governors. And he was only going to get that approval if the BOG was satisfied that everything had been done to keep the franchise in Seattle.

    So it was to Bennetts interest, to make sure Seattle got every opportunity.

    The team was not stolen, Seattle lost the team. And Simmons can rot in hades as long as he keeps pushing a message to the contrary, just to be nice to his goodl ole boy buddies in Seattle.

    Professional journalist ?? Not Simmons, he's an idiot.

  11. #26
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    People across the country think that the Sonics were stolen because minor or major portions of pieces like this continue to perpetuate the idea. BS is one of the biggest, most "talented" protagonists that keep the idea at the forefront. There are seemingly a disproportionate number of Seattleites in the public eye that hate that Seattle has no NBA (ie. Neil Everette). The facts are ignored and obscured by interpretation of a few emails. All that people hear is the emotional wailings of Seattleites and Seattle-empathizers. Demonize the fat rich hick, and you "win".

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Thunder View Post
    People across the country think that the Sonics were stolen because minor or major portions of pieces like this continue to perpetuate the idea. BS is one of the biggest, most "talented" protagonists that keep the idea at the forefront. There are seemingly a disproportionate number of Seattleites in the public eye that hate that Seattle has no NBA (ie. Neil Everette). The facts are ignored and obscured by interpretation of a few emails. All that people hear is the emotional wailings of Seattleites and Seattle-empathizers. Demonize the fat rich hick, and you "win".
    Amen

    Nail on the head.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fast | Break View Post
    Good to have you aboard. A couple of things your post makes me ponder though... Can't blame Portland too much for drafting a big man at a time when really good big men were, and still are hard to come by. Hindsight 20/20 right. Secondly, we weren't going to win the championship no matter what. They dominated us, and it just wasn't our time. I do believe it made us much stronger though, so no harm no foul. Third, I completely agree that a total Laker meltdown this year is a possibility. And the thought of that makes me absolutely giddy

    As far as the article goes, he seems to be grasping at something to write about and trying to be the authority on it, when it's quite obvious he has no more insight into the thing than anybody else outside the organization. Makes for fun conjecture though I suppose, which is really what drives the sports forums and such.

    Break,

    Good points on Miami taking it to us. I am probably lookin at from behind my THUNDER tinted glasses. I just think that 2-0 us is so much more powerful than 1-1 but alas who knows. I think you are spot on with it making us stronger though. Good points and thanks for the post. I am really looking forward to posting on here a bit more.

  14. #29
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    I really have to disagree with Plainsman on some points here. Although I do hate Bill Simmons because, yes, he is an idiot, I do think his column has merit. Obviously he throws out certain assumptions about how Presti has spoken about the deal. He's never said he couldn't afford a max, et cetera. But, assuming that, in private, the OKC ownership group has complained about the new salary cap, then Bill Simmons argument about how they're whining too much is correct. Even with the new tax issues, the Thunder stand to build their brand and influence far beyond their market in the long term. If they don't pay Harden and the Thunder fizzle out, they might end up being no more important the the Milwaukee Bucks. Of course, this is all assuming that Presti and Co. said that they cannot afford the max. But they haven't said that, at least not publicly.

    And, of course, you have the eternal argument over whether the Sonics were stolen or not. To me, it's an absolute term that doesn't really apply. Were the Sonics taken under some very shady business dealings that had various layers of deception? Did Clay Bennett commit himself to keeping the Sonics in Seattle but not deliver on his promise? Did he put forward a totally unrealistic arena plan just to say he tried to keep the team in Seattle? Were the hearts of Seattleites everywhere torn when a 40 year tradition was ripped out of their city? Whether you like it or not, the answer to all of the above questions is, "Yes." Now, did Clay Bennett do anything illegal? No.

    The Definition of steal is, "to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, especially secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch." So, under this definition, did Clay Bennett steal the Sonics? In my opinion, yes. He secretly went behind everyone's backs, and forcibly moved the team. Did he have the right to? Yes. But the permission? Of everybody who had cheered for the Sonics for 40 years? Heck no. The Sonics were the property of Seattle, as far as I'm concerned.

    Does this mean that I'm going to go about like the team has a black mark on it and act really self defeating? No! I'm a huge Thunder fan. I'm not a Clay Bennett fan. I'm not an Aubrey McClendon fan. But I support their product nonetheless, because the Thunder have meant more to the community that I could ever imagine, and I have a passion for basketball. Think I'm a hypocrite? Ask yourself the same question when you eat at Wal-Mart or McDonalds.

    And for the record, Seattle wasn't in trouble. They filled up the arena consistently, TV ratings were high, and they made some deep playoff runs in the 90s and 2000s. The only big thing that was an issue was Key Arena, which had been renovated in 1994 and the previous owners had no problem with. What makes the Peake better than Key Arena? David Stern has said it himself. Not luxury boxes, not amenities. IT's the footprint. Key Arena is on 30,000 or so feet of land, the Peake is on 50,000. And it has the potential for expansion. We just expanded it.

    In about 5-10 years, Oklahoma City is going to be on the hook for a new arena, because of the "decaying" facility we have in place now. Then Clay Bennett's money might suddenly disappear, and citizens will be on the hook for millions to build a new palace for the rich to play in. That's precisely what makes the situation in Seattle so troubling. The city didn't lose the Sonics because of a lack of support. They lost the Sonics because the NBA and owners were able to hold them hostage for a new arena. You know, kind of like what's happening in Sacramento right now. Or will happen in other small markets down the road. And if Oklahoma City can't foot the bill for this new arena, they lose the team. If that happens, it will be awful hard for us not to admit that the Sonics were stolen.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zorgon View Post
    The Definition of steal is, "to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, especially secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch." So, under this definition, did Clay Bennett steal the Sonics? In my opinion, yes. He secretly went behind everyone's backs, and forcibly moved the team. Did he have the right to? Yes. But the permission? Of everybody who had cheered for the Sonics for 40 years? Heck no. The Sonics were the property of Seattle, as far as I'm concerned.
    Bennett and the PBC "purchased" the "property" from Howard Schultz and received "permission" from the NBA Board of Governors to move the team to Oklahoma. He didn't go behind anyone's back, he stated when the team was purchased that they had one year to consummate a deal for a new arena. He did not "forcibly" move the team to OKC; the NBA Relocation Committee recommended that they allow the team to move and the owners voted on the issue near-unanimously (minus Seattleite Paul Allen and Mark Cuban, who had a regional stronghold on the Oklahoma fan base). Does the situation suck for Sonic fans? Yes. Was the team "stolen"? Heck no.
    "I'm OKC til they don't want me no more. You know what I'm sayin'? I wanna be here for the rest of my career. Point blank." -- Kevin Durant

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